DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
That is FRESH AIR. We have yet another in at present’s lineup of R&B, rockabilly, and rock ‘n’ roll interviews. A few of the best soul and rhythm and blues recordings would not have been made if not for Jerry Wexler. Wexler was a companion in Atlantic Information from the early Nineteen Fifties by way of the mid-Nineteen Seventies. His specialty was discovering nice singers and matching them with the suitable band and backup singers to create a sound that was each artistically true and commercially profitable. The brief record of individuals with whom he is labored consists of The Drifters, Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin, Bob Dylan, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding and Solomon Burke. Terry spoke with Jerry Wexler stay from the Public Radio Convention in Washington, D.C., in 1993. He died in 2008 on the age of 91. Listed below are just some of the information for which we’ve got Jerry Wexler to thank.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “I’VE BEEN LOVING YOU TOO LONG”)
OTIS REDDING: (Singing) I have been loving you too lengthy to cease now.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “WHAT I’D SAY”)
RAY CHARLES: (Singing) See the woman with the diamond ring? She is aware of learn how to shake that factor, all proper now, now, now. Hey, hey. Hey, hey.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “IN THE MIDNIGHT HOUR”)
WILSON PICKETT: (Singing) I am gonna wait until the midnight hour. That is when my love come tumbling down. I am gonna wait until the midnight hour, when there is not any one else round.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “UNDER THE BOARDWALK”)
THE DRIFTERS: (Singing) Beneath the boardwalk, out of the solar. Beneath the boardwalk, we’ll be having some enjoyable. Beneath the boardwalk, individuals strolling above. Beneath the boardwalk, we’ll be making love. Beneath the boardwalk, boardwalk.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “RESPECT”)
ARETHA FRANKLIN: (Singing) Ooh. What you need, child, I received it. What you want, you understand I received it. All I am askin’ is for slightly respect whenever you come residence (just a bit bit). Hey child (just a bit bit) whenever you get residence, (Just a bit bit) mister (just a bit bit). I ain’t gonna do you fallacious whilst you’re gone.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
TERRY GROSS: I wish to get began along with your work with Aretha Franklin. I feel that is place to start out. Now, she had made about – oh, I do not know – 10 or so recordings on Columbia Information earlier than coming…
JERRY WEXLER: Sure.
GROSS: …To Atlantic. John Hammond produced her, and he was producing her like a jazz singer, sort of within the Dinah Washington custom.
WEXLER: Yeah.
GROSS: You – when she got here to Atlantic, you labored together with her. You heard one thing fully completely different. What did you hear whenever you began producing her?
WEXLER: Effectively, I heard the Aretha Franklin who sang in church, who sang “Treasured Lord” when she was 13 years previous. And a person within the viewers was so overcome he stated, hear at her. Pay attention at her. And I listened, and it wasn’t a lot that I attempted a brand new method to her. It is that what she did match very effectively in with what we had been doing anyhow.
GROSS: Effectively, you sat her down on the piano.
WEXLER: Proper.
GROSS: You had her play herself, which I do not suppose she’d executed on the information earlier than that.
WEXLER: Not very a lot. Yeah.
GROSS: And you then took her all the way down to Muscle Shoals, to Alabama, to the identical place, truly, that Arthur Alexander began earlier than he grew to become…
WEXLER: Precisely, and I need you to know that I am not one of many individuals who did not pay him.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: What was it like at Muscle Shoals? What did you hear there in that Southern sound that you just needed?
WEXLER: Effectively, it was the best way they recorded, which was ad-lib recording, with out written preparations – constructing the music from the get-go, simply from the chords. And the musicians made a superb contribution. So these had been preparations which all of us did collectively. They usually had been simply as a lot preparations as something that was ever executed by Henry Mancini, within the sense of being an organized piece of music.
GROSS: So that you took Aretha all the way down to Muscle Shoals, recorded, like, a observe and a half together with her, and there was this actually huge battle.
WEXLER: (Laughter).
GROSS: What was the battle about?
WEXLER: There was an explosion that went on due to an excessive amount of Jack Daniels and never sufficient prudence.
(LAUGHTER)
WEXLER: And it needed to do with Ted White, who was Aretha’s husband on the time, who received into harmful, over-friendly ingesting from the identical jug with a gentleman who can finest be described as a card-carrying redneck trumpet participant. And it received into what we name the handfuls, the Southern dozens, after which it received nasty.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WEXLER: And the session blew up, and we went again to New York with one music full, which was “I By no means Beloved A Man.” And a three-piece observe on the opposite facet, which was “Do Proper Girl.” And all we had there was rhythm guitar, bass and drums, which isn’t a complete lot to go on (laughter).
GROSS: Not even vocal.
WEXLER: No vocal. No piano. No background vocal. After which we completed by bringing Aretha and her sisters into the studio. And it was a fairly good piece of extemporization, in that beginning with this very minimal observe, Aretha laid down an organ half and a piano half. After which she sang the lead, after which she and her sisters received collectively and did the background. And it was a really full, completed report put collectively, I would say, with spit and chewing gum.
GROSS: You produced “Respect.” Is there a narrative behind how the sock it to me’s landed on there?
WEXLER: Effectively, yeah, the story is that when Otis Redding did it, it was fully a special music. The sock it to me’s had been Aretha Franklin’s thought the place she injected into the music, which connoted a sure thought of social respect, most likely the notion of ethnic respect, mixed with slightly considered lubricity on her half.
(LAUGHTER)
WEXLER: The respect that she was speaking about was what you may name – very bluntly name correct sexual consideration.
(LAUGHTER)
WEXLER: However it was her transmutation of Otis Redding’s little Southern music. As a matter of reality, I used to be mixing the report in our studio on Broadway, and Otis walked in. He stated, that little gal executed took my music. However he meant that in a really kindly manner ‘trigger he noticed the money registers ringing.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Now, your first studio was truly the workplace…
WEXLER: That is proper.
GROSS: …Of Atlantic Information.
WEXLER: Proper.
GROSS: Who did you – ‘trigger when Atlantic was younger, you did not have a studio. So what’d you do? You’d transfer out the chairs into the hallway…
WEXLER: Effectively…
GROSS: …Everytime you wish to report?
WEXLER: We did have a studio. It was our workplace, and it was a studio as a result of we had tools in it. And…
GROSS: Proper.
WEXLER: My companion Ahmet Ertegun and I shared this huge room. We had two desks that had been catty-corner, canted towards one another. And what we might do is push them in opposition to the wall, stack them. After which our engineer Tom Dowd would set out camp chairs, a couple of microphones and one mic within the corridor for echo.
GROSS: We’re simply going to regulate your mic slightly bit there.
WEXLER: Yeah.
GROSS: There’s a lot {that a} report producer is up in opposition to, usually the actual sudden. And I feel an important instance of that’s whenever you had been producing The Drifters’ model of “Beneath The Boardwalk.”
WEXLER: All proper.
GROSS: Let’s begin with the start of that story. Initially, they did not wish to even report the music.
WEXLER: That is proper.
GROSS: You gave them an ultimatum.
WEXLER: Proper. I used to be not the road producer of that music. I used to be appearing as a supervisor, you understand, as an govt of the corporate. And The Drifters had been all the time a priority of mine. And an important producer – deceased – Bert Berns, was producing the report, and neither he nor any of The Drifters may stand the music. They simply could not purchase it. And I did not wish to intervene ‘trigger Bert was the producer however – this sounds, like, very self-congratulatory (laughter). And I stated, this music must be executed. And I stated, you’ll be able to choose all the remainder. I stated, or else ain’t no session. Yeah.
GROSS: Why’d you just like the music a lot?
WEXLER: As a result of it seemed like a success.
GROSS: OK. Adequate cause.
WEXLER: (Laughter).
GROSS: OK. So what occurred to the lead singer the evening earlier than…
WEXLER: Oh, yeah.
GROSS: …The session?
WEXLER: The lead singer on the time was a person named Rudy Lewis. You realize, we had three incredible lead singers in The Drifters. The primary was Clyde McPhatter. The second was Rudy Lewis. His title will not be as well-known, however he did some nice songs. And the third was Ben E. King, who’s having an important resurgence with “Stand By Me.” I imply, you’ll be able to’t flip round with out listening to it anymore.
However Rudy Lewis, sadly, the evening earlier than the session was discovered useless within the lodge room with a hypodermic needle in his arm. And the – I feel that was the – yeah, the evening earlier than the session. And we tried to name off the session, however it was an enormous date. And we had employed a number of union musicians, and the union wasn’t chopping us any slack in any respect. They gave us 24 hours. So we moved the session forward yet another day, however then we could not even change the charts. So we had to make use of Johnny Moore to sing the lead and with out even the important thing change, and he managed to sing it in the important thing that was put to him. And the attention-grabbing factor in regards to the report was we promoted all of it alongside the Japanese Seaboard in Atlantic Metropolis and so forth. And it simply – it evokes summer season on a regular basis.
GROSS: And also you truly did a number of that your self, did not you? Packed up the automobile and drove round selling the report.
WEXLER: Oh, yeah.
GROSS: ‘Trigger you needed it to interrupt so dangerous. Yeah.
WEXLER: That is proper. And we did a number of that in these days.
GROSS: Now, you labored with Otis Redding quite a bit throughout…
WEXLER: Yeah.
GROSS: …His profession.
WEXLER: I used to be not Otis’ producer. I need you to comprehend that. Otis was produced at Stax Information in Memphis by that nice workforce who – Jim Stewart and Booker T. & the M.G.’s with – particularly Steve Cropper.
GROSS: Now, you noticed him change quite a bit as he grew to become larger.
WEXLER: Oh, sure.
GROSS: Now, what was he like to start with earlier than he was very well-known? What was he like on stage?
WEXLER: Otis was quite simple, very unaffected, however he had the magic. And when he got here to New York after his first hit report, I picked him up on the airport. No roadies, no one, no nothing, simply sole Otis. And he opened on the Apollo, and he simply stood there, simply straight on along with his arms at his facet, did not transfer. One other one who began like that was Marvin Gaye. However they realized some stagecraft. However what actually kicked Otis into transferring was having to observe Sam & Dave…
GROSS: (Laughter).
WEXLER: …Who was described as a stage stuffed with Jackie Wilsons.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: That is actually nice. No, you understand, we had been speaking earlier than the way you introduced Aretha Franklin all the way down to Muscle Shoals, Alabama. You introduced Wilson Pickett all the way down to Memphis to report.
WEXLER: Proper.
GROSS: You actually beloved that Southern sound that was popping out of…
WEXLER: Proper.
GROSS: …A few of the bands there. Why’d you consider bringing him there?
WEXLER: Effectively, ‘trigger every part was winding down in New York. I imply, it was entropy. We simply could not get out of our personal manner. We had been very profitable yr after yr. However our model of recording was a daily old-time normal model utilizing arrangers with written preparations. Now, when it’s important to change an association, and also you virtually all the time do to accommodate the vicissitudes of the music and the place you are going, it is complete agony for the entrepreneur to see that clock going round…
GROSS: (Laughter).
WEXLER: …Whereas a person goes round with an eraser, erasing little notes on 13 charts.
(LAUGHTER)
WEXLER: And this Southern model of recording, the place it is simply – all you might have is chord indications. You exit. You sing a lick. Do it like this, fellas. Bang. Here is the brand new chord, you understand. However possibly that is overstating it. However truly, there is a spontaneity and a incredible new aspect that is available in as a result of the musicians are natural to the concept.
GROSS: So that you heard that it might work…
WEXLER: I heard the sound.
GROSS: …With Wilson Pickett.
WEXLER: I heard the sound, and I introduced Pickett to Memphis, and we lower “Midnight Hour” and a number of different issues there all in a rush. It was nice.
BIANCULLI: Jerry Wexler chatting with Terry Gross in 1993 stay from the Public Radio Convention in Washington, D.C.
On Monday’s present, we conclude our archive collection R&B, rockabilly and early rock ‘n’ roll with Dion, who introduced his guitar and sang some songs. Additionally, songwriter, pianist, arranger and producer Allen Toussaint, who was on the piano for our 1988 interview and sang a few of his early songs, together with “Lipstick Traces.” I hope you’ll be able to be part of us.
(SOUNDBITE OF ALLEN TOUSSAINT’S “ROSETTA”)
BIANCULLI: FRESH AIR’s govt producer is Danny Miller. Sam Briger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with extra engineering help by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Diana Martinez.
(SOUNDBITE OF ALLEN TOUSSAINT’S “ROSETTA”)
Copyright © 2025 NPR. All rights reserved. Go to our web site phrases of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for additional data.
Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts could fluctuate. Transcript textual content could also be revised to appropriate errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org could also be edited after its unique broadcast or publication. The authoritative report of NPR’s programming is the audio report.
